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Introduction

Lets look at the product sequence: $$(n-1)(n-2)(n-3)...(n-k)$$

Where $n,k\in \mathbb N$ and $n\le k$ ; the expression will always have value $0$

But what if we remove the $n$th term in the sequence for choosen $n$?
How would you then calculate the value?

For example, we first pre-select $k$, lets say 7, then we have:

$(n-1)(n-2)...(n-7)$

Now choose $n$ lets say $4$ and remove the $4$th term;

$(4-1)(4-2)(4-3)(\text{"removed"})(4-5)(4-6)(4-7)=$
$3\times 2 \times 1 \times ("0") \times -1 \times -2 \times -3=$
$3!\times -(3!)=$
$-36$

I have found a formula for $n\lt k $ like: $$ (k-n)!\times (-1)^{k-1} \times(n-1)!$$

For $n=k$ it is: $$(n-1)!$$

And for $n\gt k$ it would be: $$\frac{(n-1)!}{(n-k-1)!}$$


Problem

How would you remove the $n$th term mathematically?

One way of doing so is using the sets and $\prod$ as described below, but could it be done pure calculus/algebra as a single expression uniting all 3 conditions for $k$ ?


My instant first thought was writing the whole thing like: $$\frac{(n-1)...(n-a)...(n-k)}{(n-a)}$$

But in this form, we are always choosing $n=a$ and we can't cancel out the two zeroes since that is not how mathematical operations work and dividing by zero isn't defined.

I was thinking then using the sets, like defining the set $\mathbb M$ with items: $m_1, m_2, m_3... = (n-1), (n-2), (n-3)...$

Then doing $\mathbb M \setminus (n-a)$ where we choose legal $a$.

And finally using: $$\prod_{m\in M}m$$

Which notates multiplication of all items that are left in a set, for $n=a$ (Choosing the same $n$ as our previously chosen $a$)


In other words

We write the expression as: $$\frac{(n-1)...(n-a)...(n-k)}{(n-b)}$$

Then we instruct to choose variables as it follows:

1) Choose $k$ to define the finite length of the sequence.

2) Choose a number $x \in \mathbb N$ for $x=a=b$ and cancel out the two.

3) Finally choose $n=x$ and compute as already stated in introduction...

Again, how would one write this in a more mathematical way? (As a single expression possibly for all 3 conditions given in introduction, without needing the step by step explanation)

Following the steps, We are ignoring the condition needed in step 2: $(n-x)\ne 0$


In Addition

Reading the comments makes it more clear, sorry for any inconveniences.


This thought came to me while I was experimenting with this: "Binary-Like" Function?; In Consecutive Products as Multi-Factorials....

Vepir
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  • I said assuming we remove the $n$th term, or in other words the term giving out $0$ as a value. And $3!\times -(3!)=6\times (-6)=-36$ ? – Vepir Apr 09 '16 at 11:21
  • Thx, go it now...It is interesting! – NoChance Apr 09 '16 at 11:22
  • I was implying, imagine a sequence, or a group of sequences type: $(n-1)...(n-k)$ of a finite length defined by $k$, and these sequences do not contain $(n-n)$ for chosen $n$ as a positive integer, if this makes it more clear? – Vepir Apr 09 '16 at 11:31
  • I don't know what your question means. You ask "how do I do this", but you clearly know how to do this; you have in fact done it (at the end of the "Introduction"). Does the "In Addition" ask something different than the "Problem"? The only way I can understand the Problem, they are asking the same thing. – Eric Stucky Apr 09 '16 at 11:36
  • I have edited my question and have tried to make it more clear. In some other words, how would we describe a group of these sequences $(n-1)...(n-k)$ which don't contain $(n-n)$ possibly as a single generating expression? – Vepir Apr 09 '16 at 11:43
  • Why are you unsatisfied with your $\prod$ formulation? – Eric Stucky Apr 09 '16 at 11:48
  • I'm considering that there is a way without using the sets. – Vepir Apr 09 '16 at 11:49
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    Would you be satisfied with this set-less formulation?$$\prod_{\substack{1\leq i\leq k \ i\neq n}} (n-i)$$ – Eric Stucky Apr 09 '16 at 11:51

2 Answers2

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I should start out by saying that the answer to your question— as asked— is yes: you have already done it. By "done it" I mean "removed the $n^\text{th}$ term; your calculation in the introduction is precisely how you remove the $n^\text{th}$ term.

The question I suspect you are trying to ask, does not have an answer, because the question is not well-formulated; something like "Is there some one-line expression I can write down to give me these numbers?".

A stupid answer is "yes, trivially", since you can just define $F(n,k)$ to be the function that outputs the numbers you need it to be, and then of course you can just write down "$F(n,k)$" on the paper and this is the answer to your question.

The moral lesson we learn from the stupid answer is that:

This issue critically depends on what expressions you are letting yourself use.

And you have to be extremely nitpicky about this. For instance, if you let yourself use the $\prod$-schema in general, you already have your answer in the question. If you don't allow generic sets in your limits, you could still write

$$\prod_{\substack{1\leq i\leq k \\ i\neq n}} (n-i)$$

Perhaps you are only allowed to use products over intervals? Then you could write

$$\prod_{i=1}^{n-1} (n-i) \cdot \prod_{i=n+1}^k (n-i)$$

But this is maybe not satisfying because in order to make sense of it for $k\leq n$, you have to be willing to work with products over empty intervals.

(By the way, once you specify what expressions you are letting yourself use, you have now made the problem well-defined. But you're not out of the woods yet: showing the answer is 'no' is likely to be very difficult. And showing the answer is 'yes' is theoretically just as easy as finding the expression... but in practice this can be virtually impossible.)

Eric Stucky
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What you want is a product of falling factorials. With the factor $(n-j)$ removed,

$$P(n,k,j)=(n-1)_{j-1}(n-j-1)_{k-j}.$$


When you specialize the formula with $j=n$, you indeed get

$$P(n,k,n)=(n-1)_{n-1}(-1)_{k-n}=(n-1)!(-1)^{k-n}(k-n)!$$

When $n>k$, this is undefined, just like with the initial definition. (Notice that by analytical continuation, the factorial of a negative is $\pm\infty$.)

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    If, I'm not mistaken, that unites all 3 $k$ cases in a single function, noticed in your provided link also a "generating" function. Thanks, I'll have fun reading what you've provided for the rest of my free time today. – Vepir Apr 09 '16 at 12:37
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    @Matta: Fair warning: "Generating function" is a technical term which doesn't match with your use in this thread. – Eric Stucky Apr 09 '16 at 12:38
  • I'll keep that in mind. – Vepir Apr 09 '16 at 12:38
  • @EricStucky: you probably mean $-1$. I don't exclude my formula being off by one somewhere. But the falling factorials are defined for any value of $n$, positive, negative, even fractional, just like the product in the OP. –  Apr 09 '16 at 12:48
  • @EricStucky: you are right, the second factor was with $k-j$ instead of $k-j+1$. I have fixed. There are $k-1$ factors in total, $j-1$ in the first factorial and $k-j$ in the second. With $j=k$, the expression is correct and simplifies to $(n-1)_{k-1}$, as should. –  Apr 09 '16 at 12:53
  • Yes, that's what I said. But see the OP: they specifically go through this example, saying they want the answer to be $-36$. – Eric Stucky Apr 09 '16 at 13:08
  • @EricStucky: no thanks. The formula is valid in all cases that make sense, $k\ge j\ge1$. –  Apr 09 '16 at 13:20
  • I'll let you go your separate way if you want. My essential concern is this: the OP specifically asks for the case when $j=n$, and is concerned with all three cases when $n=k$ and $n<k$ and $n>k$. I do not know how to make sense of your formula in the latter case because of the negative subscript in the second factor. – Eric Stucky Apr 09 '16 at 13:22
  • @EricStucky: stop being blind. $k\ge j$. –  Apr 09 '16 at 13:25
  • Okay, this is probably the bigger issue: I see you are demanding that $k\geq j$. I agree! The expression does not make sense otherwise. But I am saying that the OP is concerned with certain cases when $k<j$; that is all. – Eric Stucky Apr 09 '16 at 13:27
  • Okay, I respect this interpretation, which (I think) comes from the title and the first line of section 3. My interpretation came from the last line of section 1, and their reference to "3 $k$ cases" in the top comment of your post. Obviously the OP had a little confusion in asking the question. [I am going to clean up my end of the comment chain a little bit; I suggest you do the same, if only so you don't come across as unreasonable without my interjections.] – Eric Stucky Apr 09 '16 at 13:32
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    @Matta: You may be interested in the follow-up discussion. Yves' formula has a technical issue that prevents it from being a complete unification of "all 3 $k$ cases", but it does deal perfectly with the interesting cases, by which I mean the ones where the troublesome term you were trying to cancel actually exists. – Eric Stucky Apr 09 '16 at 13:38
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    @EricStucky: after reading the OP carefuly, one may interpret it as indeed enforcing $n=j$: for given $n$ you strikeout the factor $n-n$. My formula is valid for $k\ge j$, i.e. $k\ge n$. But the OP doesn't realize that no formula can be given when $k<n$ just because the expression is not defined. You can't remove a factor which is not there. Or if you do so, you just get infinity. –  Apr 09 '16 at 13:43
  • This I haven't noticed at my first looks on this. Thank you both for sticking around and helping to clear out everything. This is still the closest thing to what I was looking for. – Vepir Apr 09 '16 at 14:54