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I always was a little confused by this notion but never thought to investigate it. In school and as I grew older people in this world (mathematics) would just say " that's the way it is " as in other subjects i would try to understand and accepted it so and moved on with my younger life to trash it away on other things. BUT, this one thing never left the back of my head. In the decimal world it is said: 1,234.567 1 (thousandths) 2 (hundredths) 3 (tenths) 4 (singles) And once we cross the border (decimal) we say it like this 5 (tenths) 6 (hundredths) 7 (thousandths)

WHY!

shouldn't the 5 be singles. I understand we are cutting the whole number(s) from the left side up into even smaller amounts on the right side, but shouldn't it still exactly reflect it's other side. Instead it skips the (singles) and goes straight to (tenths). what happen to the " what you do to one side you must do to the other " rule in mathematics.

p.s. I apologize for the incorrect tag. I don't know what it's called, that's what the site gave me.

Max R.
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  • We have $\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{2} = 1$, i.e. "two halves add up to make a whole." Written a different way, $0.5+0.5=1$. Now, $\frac{1}{3}+\frac{1}{3}+\frac{1}{3}=1$, i.e. "three thirds add up to make a whole." Continue following that same linguistic pattern on to "ten tenths add up to make a whole" that is "$\frac{1}{10}+\frac{1}{10}+\dots+\frac{1}{10}=1$" The way we have defined decimal notation, $\frac{1}{10}=1\cdot 10^{-1}=0.1$, hence $0.1$ is what we call a "tenth." – JMoravitz Jul 24 '16 at 05:11

5 Answers5

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Nice question. The names for the digits in a decimal representation: (..., thousands, hundreds, tens, units, tenths, hundredths, ...) can be thought of as what we multiply the value of the corresponding digit in evaluating our number. Since "decimal" corresponds to base ten, taking a number: $$\begin{align}123.45 &=1*(100)+2*(10)+3*(1)+4*\left(\frac{1}{10}\right)+5*\left(\frac{1}{100}\right)\\ &= 1*10^2+2*10^1+3*10^0+4*10^{-1}+5*10^{-2}\end{align}$$

Note that our "singles" or "units" place is the position where $10^k$ has an exponent of $0$. To the left and right the symmetry is more obvious between "tens" and "tenths", "hundreds" and "hundredths" and so on.

Writing it out this way should make it clear that the symmetry is around the units place instead of the decimal point, which just separates the integer part (where the exponent $k \ge 0$ in $10^k$) and the fractional part (where it's smaller than zero).

n1000
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" In the decimal world it is said: 1,234.567 1 (thousandths) 2 (hundredths) 3 (tenths) 4 (singles) And once we cross the border (decimal) we say it like this 5 (tenths) 6 (hundredths) 7 (thousandths)"

We don't say "1 (thousandths) 2 (hundredths) 3 (tenths) 4 (singles)"! We say "1 (thousand) 2 (hundreds) 3 (tens) 4 (singles)"

The units are units. The figures to the left of the unit are multiples: tens, hundreds, thousands, etc. The figures to the right of the units are the fractions the tenths, the hundredths, the thousandths. et.c

If we were consistent we'd write the number as

123 4 567

Where the singles/units would have an exhalted place as the units values--- the figures to the left would be understood to be groups of tens and groups of tens of tens (and tens of tens of tens) and those to the right are the fractional tenths and tenths of tenths.

However such would be impractical. We usually just write integers as 1234 where it's understood that the last time is units and only the further terms are groups of tens.

We only introduce the decimal point "." when we need to. So that we use it at all indicates "as soon as we cross it we are into the fractional area".

THink of the units zone as a comfort zone between the "fractions" on the right of "." but before the "deep" powers once we really get into the left of the units place.

fleablood
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It has to do with powers of 10. The coefficient of $10^0$ is singles, for $10^1$ or $10^{-1}$ we have tens or tenths, for $10^2$ and $10^{-2}$ we have hundreds and hundredths, and so on. Since +0=-0, we have only one singles.

Andrei
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  • " Since +0=-0, we have only one singles. " but why! – Max R. Jul 24 '16 at 05:21
  • @MacR. This question is exactly like "we have a positive 1 and a negative 1, but why do we have only one 0?" – Andrei Jul 24 '16 at 06:00
  • Why do we only have one singles? Because we only have one of every value. We have one $10^3$, and one $10^2$ and one $10^1$ and one $10^0$ and one $10^{-1}$ and one $10^{-2}$ etc. Your question boils down to why to we put the decimal point between the $10^0$ place and the $10^{-1}$ rather then between the $10^1$ and the $10^0$ place or why don't we have one decimal point between $10^0$ and $10^{-1}$ and another power point between $10^1$ and $10^0$. Why do we do that? Well, .... think about it. – fleablood Jul 24 '16 at 07:00
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If I give you the choice between $1$ pie and $0.1$ pie, which do you prefer? Clearly the place after the decimal point does not represent singles. We only need to allocate one place to singles. For historical reasons, that is placed in front of the decimal point. It is similar to the number line, where we only need one zero, but we need $\pm 1, \pm 2, $ etc.

Ross Millikan
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You're noticing a pattern that holds when you have an even number of items that are arranged in a mirror pattern:

$$A B C D | D C B A$$

Here, you can put a dividing line like a mirror, separating the figure into a left half and a right half. Also, every item appears twice: once on the left side, and once on the right.

But notice what happens when you have an odd number of items arranged in a mirror pattern :

$$A B C D \hat{E} D C B A$$

In the odd case, there is a "middle" item which falls between the left and right sides. As a result, you can't place a dividing line neatly between the left and right sides. Instead, the "middle" item marks the mirror point.


I think you see decimal numbers as an even-like case, with the decimal point $\LARGE .$ dividing the left side from the right side. As such, you expect each item to appear twice, once on the left and once on the right.

But in fact, decimal numbers are an odd-like case (!). The units (or "singles") position marks the midway point in the way that $\hat{E}$ does in the diagram above —the decimal $\Large .$ is not part of the picture and should be ignored for now.

Look at it this way, when you ignore the decimal point:

$$\ldots\text{thousands}\quad \text{hundreds}\quad \text{tens}\quad \hat{\text{units}}\quad\text{tenths}\quad\text{hundredths}\quad\text{thousandths}\ldots$$

Do you see the mirror symmetry now? Because it is odd-like symmetry, there is no place to put a dividing mirror at the halfway point.

So where can we put the decimal point? We choose to put the decimal point on the righthand side of the units position. This has the feature of putting all of the whole number positions to the left of the decimal point, and all the fractional number positions to the right of the decimal point. The decimal point therefore breaks the symmetry — but the notational advantages are worth it.


But why does the decimal have odd-type symmetry in the first place, instead of even-type symmetry? Why couldn't it be something like:

$$\ldots\text{hundreds}\quad \text{tens}\quad \text{units}\quad| \quad{\color{blue}{\text{uniths}}}\quad\text{tenths}\quad\text{hundredths}\ldots$$

One answer is that we are listing all the integer powers of 10 in order, and so the odd-type symmetry of the decimal system comes from the odd-type symmetry of the integers:

$$\ldots 10^{3},10^2, 10^1, 10^0, 10^{-1}, 10^{-2}, 10^{-3},\ldots$$

where here $10^0$ is the midpoint of the odd symmetry. So now the question becomes: why do the integers have odd-type symmetry like this:

$$\ldots +3 \quad +2 \quad +1 \quad 0 \quad -1 \quad -2 \quad -3 \ldots$$

One answer is that our number system does not have two different numbers called, say, $0^+$ and $0^-$. If we did, we would have even-type symmetry exactly the way we'd like:

$$\ldots 10^{+2}\quad 10^{+1}\quad 10^{0^+} \quad {\color{blue}{10^{0^-}}} \quad 10^{-1}\quad 10^{-2}\ldots$$

And the reason why our number system does not have two different numbers $0^+$ and $0^-$ is because then you'd have to tell me how to do arithmetic such as $0^+ + 0^-$—and it's hard to give a satisfying definition. For example,

  • If $0^+ + 0^-$ is just $0^+$, then $0^+$ isn't "really" like zero. We know that zero should obey a law like $0 + a = a$ for any number $a$.
  • $0^+ + 0^-$ is just $0^-$, then $0^-$ isn't "really" like zero. We know that $0^-$ should obey a law like $a + 0 = a$ for any number $a$.
  • If $0^+ + 0^-$ is some new number $0^\star$, then neither $0^+$ nor $0^-$ is is like 0.

And now it seems we've run out of options, but it's good to keep thinking.

user326210
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  • " As a result, you can't place a dividing line neatly between the left and right sides. " - I see. " Because it is odd-like symmetry, there is no place to put a dividing mirror at the halfway point. " - I understand " This has the feature of putting all of the whole number positions to the left of the decimal point, and all the fractional number positions to the right of the decimal point. The decimal point therefore breaks the symmetry. " but surely there are single units on the fraction side, right. – Max R. Jul 24 '16 at 05:28
  • In an even-type symmetry, every item appears twice. In an odd-type symmetry, there's a "middle" item that only appears once in the pattern. The decimal system has odd-type symmetry, and so the "singles" only appear once. We insert a decimal point into this picture, but the decimal point is not included as part of the pattern. – user326210 Jul 24 '16 at 05:34
  • Actually, I think you are asking why the decimal system has odd symmetry at all, instead of even symmetry where "singles" repeats twice and there's a mirror line. ... hundreds, tens, singles, sinths, tenths, hundredths, ... . The answer is that these are all the powers of 10 in order: $10^3, 10^2, 10^1, 10^0, 10^{-1}, 10^{-2}, \ldots$. – user326210 Jul 24 '16 at 05:39
  • And so the problem is essentially that we don't have two different integers called $+0$ and $-0$. If there were, you could have $10^{3}, 10^{2}, 10^{1}, 10^{+0}, 10^{-0}, 10^{-1}, 10^{-2},10^{-3},\ldots$ just the way you'd like. – user326210 Jul 24 '16 at 05:40
  • This goes back to the whole " base ten " thing it sounds like, that I have been avoiding like the plague since it was brought to my attention in a previous question I asked here. http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/1754851/why-start-counting-from-0?noredirect=1#comment3580850_1754851 something fleablood should remember. – Max R. Jul 24 '16 at 06:53
  • You've been avoiding "base ten"??? Why? If you avoid base 10 you'll NEVER understand this. I can guarentee that. Look, if you can't understand our decimal number system is a base 10 system what that means in practice, then you have to simply accept "this is the way it is" there is no other way to understand it. But for goodness sake! Base 10 numbering system is BASIC. There is NO EXCUSE for the schools to have failed you if you didn't learn this in the 3rd grade! But if somehow they did. Then learn it NOW!!! It is VERY easy and utterly nescessary! – fleablood Jul 24 '16 at 07:07
  • @MacR. Any base will do. If your number system uses base $b$, then you can represent any number using the powers $\ldots, b^{-3}, b^{-2}, b^{-1}, b^0, b^1, b^2, b^3, \ldots$. Once again, the odd-type symmetry of the number system comes from the odd-type symmetry of the integers which are exponents here. – user326210 Jul 24 '16 at 07:46