8

In Steen and Seebach's "Counterexamples in Topology", we see the definition of the Long Line (counterexample 45).

"The long line $L$ is constructed from the ordinal space $[0, \Omega)$ (where $\Omega$ is the least uncountable ordinal) by placing between each ordinal $\alpha$ and its successor $\alpha + 1$ a copy of the unit interval $I = (0,1)$. $L$ is then linearly ordered, and we give it the order topology."

Having given this a bit of thought, I need clarifying the following.

Are the ordinals $0, 1, 2, \ldots, \alpha, \alpha + 1, \ldots$ part of the space, or is $L$ just $\Omega$ instances of $(0,1)$ concatenated? If the latter, then it appears there may be a homeomorphism between $L$ and $[0,\Omega) \times (0,1)$ under the lexicographic ordering. If the former, then it is very much less simple.

So is $L$ like: $0, (0,1), 1, (0,1), 2, (0,1), \ldots, (0,1), \alpha, (0,1), \alpha + 1, (0,1), \ldots, (0,1), \Omega-1, (0,1)$

or is it like:

$(0,1), (0,1), (0,1), \ldots, (0,1), (0,1), (0,1), \ldots, (0,1), (0,1)$

with $\Omega$ instances of $(0,1)$?

Prime Mover
  • 5,005

2 Answers2

4

A better (IMO) description of the long line is $[0,\Omega) \times [0,1)$ ordered lexicographically: $$(\alpha, t) \le_L (\beta, u) \iff (\alpha < \beta) \lor \left(\alpha=\beta \land (t \le u)\right)$$ and then given the order topology (with basic elements all open intervals plus all right-open intervals of the form $[(0,0), (\alpha, t) \rangle$ (special case for the minimum, there is no maximum). This is also what Munkres does (he has more attention for ordered spaces, and it's one of his exercises (2nd edition, § 24, ex. 6) that a well-ordered set (like $[0,\Omega)$) times $[0,1)$ is a linear continuum (i.e. connected) in the lexicographic order topology.

So the minimum is $(0,0)$ and we start with a usual interval $[(0,0), (1,0)]\simeq [0,1]$, so no gaps or jumps. Up to $(\omega,0)$, it's just $[0,\infty)$, essentially, and there is no gap between that and $(\omega,0)$. Locally (in neighbourhoods of points) things look like $\Bbb R$. It only goes on for longer (it's no longer separable, or Lindelöf).

The S&S description is (I think) meant as $$X=[0,\Omega) \cup \bigcup_{\alpha < \Omega} I_\alpha$$

where each $I_\alpha$ is a disjoint copy of $(0,1)$ and the order within each $I_\alpha$ is the usual one, the order on $[0,\Omega)$ is the usual well-order among ordinals, and if $x \neq y$ belong to distinct intervals $I_\alpha, I_\beta$, the order of $\alpha$ and $beta$ alone determines which is smaller (so if $x \in I_\alpha$ and $\alpha < \beta$, then $x< y$. (Each $I_\alpha$ is the copy of $(0,1)$ between $\alpha < \alpha+1$ for each $\alpha$), so if $\alpha \in [0,\Omega)$ and $x \in I_\beta$ with $\beta > \alpha$, $x > \beta > \alpha$. So we can define all order relations for a linear order. The nice thing about the equivalent $\le_L$ is that general theory already implies this is a linear order, and we don't need to do case distinctions based on what kind of point (ordinal or interval point) we have, and the linear continuum fact is quite general. $\omega_1$ embeds as a closed subset in $X$ either way.

So it's like the first description you gave, not the second, long story short.

Henno Brandsma
  • 242,131
  • "we glue together the 1 of an interval to the 0 of the next one," -- and in the S&S definition of this concept, the "gluing" process consists of replacing that $1$ point of overlap in successive unit intervals with successive ordinals? – Prime Mover May 30 '20 at 09:46
  • @PrimeMover There is no overlap in S&S. Any point of a copy of $(0,1)$ is strictly in-between its "neighbour" ordinals. In my model, the original ordinals are $(\alpha,0)$, and $(\alpha,1)$ does not occur too. In the S&S description at limits, the limit is still larger than all intervals and ordinals before it. – Henno Brandsma May 30 '20 at 09:53
  • By "overlap" I was trying to understand what you meant by "gluing". I was assuming you meant you were modelling $\ldots (0, 1), \alpha, (0, 1), \ldots$ by sticking successive copies of $[0,1]$ to $[0, 1]$ to [0,1]$ and "identifying" the upper end of one with the lower end of the other and replacing each with a single (ultimately arbitrary) ordinal. Your second comment went so far over my head I didn't even hear it whistle. I have trouble understanding complex aggregations of compound statements linked together as run-on sentences. – Prime Mover May 30 '20 at 10:07
  • I'm sorry Henno but every point you make confuses me even more. I said nothing about $[0,1], \alpha, [0,1], \alpha+1$ and I don't get what you mean by "$[0,1]$ copies". – Prime Mover May 30 '20 at 10:19
  • @HennoBrandsma is it also true that if one chooses a point $P=(\alpha,t)$ after the initial $P_0=(0,0)$, no matter how high the ordinal $\alpha$ is, the interval $[P_0,P]$ in the linear order will be homeomorphic and isomorphic as linearly ordered space to $[0,1]$? – PatrickR May 30 '20 at 18:59
  • @PatrickR yes, that holds here. It’s locally just $\Bbb R$. – Henno Brandsma May 30 '20 at 19:02
  • and more than just locally. It keeps being globally like $\Bbb R$ all the way until the end (but not at the end) – PatrickR May 30 '20 at 19:04
  • 1
    @PatrickR There is no end, so what would "at the end" even mean? Indeed, all $[0,\alpha)$ are homeomorphic to $[0,\infty)$ when $\alpha < \Omega$. It's quite a weird space that way. – Henno Brandsma May 30 '20 at 21:52
2

It is like your first $$0, (0,1), 1, (0,1), 2, (0,1), \ldots, (0,1), \alpha, (0,1), \alpha + 1, (0,1), \ldots, (0,1),\ldots$$ except there is no $\Omega-1$ as $\Omega$ is a limit ordinal. which, in typography, is not too different from your second, because it is $$[0,1),[0,1),[0,1),[0,1),[0,1),[0,1),[0,1),[0,1),\ldots$$ the point is that there are uncountably many pieces. In your second there is only one piece, so it is order isomorphic to the real line.

Ross Millikan
  • 374,822
  • 5
    As far as I can see, no point has an immediate predecessor or an immediate successor. Locally it's just like $\mathbb R$ except at the left endpoint. And what's that $\Omega-1$? – bof May 30 '20 at 04:03
  • @bof $\Omega - 1$ is the ordinal before $\Omega$. Such concepts are discussed in the various works I have on my shelf which discuss transfinite ordinals. I don't understand what it means, but then to paraphrase the words of Von Neumann you don't understand things in maths, you just get used to them – Prime Mover May 30 '20 at 09:26
  • "not too different" -- okay, so are we saying that $... \alpha, (0, 1) ...$ is similar enough in concept to "$... [0, 1) ...$ that it "doesn't matter" that in one case you have $0$ and another you have an arbitrary integer (or technically "ordinal")? I get your point about the immediate predecessors, which makes the long line far more elegantly subtle than it appears at first blush -- are we saying that these "fencepost" ordinals are arbitrary enough to be effectively "invisible" in the large? Excuse my lack of technical vocabulary. – Prime Mover May 30 '20 at 09:32
  • 1
    @Ross Millikan Actually now I think about it, I don't understand about "uncountably many elements that do not have immediate predecessors". So which elements of $L$ do have immediate predecessors? I'm lost. – Prime Mover May 30 '20 at 09:39
  • 3
    no element of the long line has an immediate predecessor. It's a continuum. @PrimeMover is quite right in his objections. – Henno Brandsma May 30 '20 at 10:02
  • Is it fair to say that there are no "distinguished points" in the long line except for the first one? – Prime Mover May 30 '20 at 10:12
  • @PrimeMover Which of the works on your shelf discuss $\Omega-1$, the ordinal before $\Omega$? This is fascinating. – bof May 30 '20 at 10:18
  • @bof Hm. Good question. Conway's "On Numbers and Games" for a start, but that's hardly mainstream. For some reason I thought I'd read it in Kolmogorov & Fomin's "Introductory Real Analysis" but not in there. Might be in Rucker's "Infinity and the Mind" or even Penrose's "The Emperor's New Mind". Hey, why not raise this as a Question? – Prime Mover May 30 '20 at 10:26
  • 2
    @PrimeMover I wondered if you were going to bring up Conway's surreal numbers. Sorry, Conway's $\Omega-1$ is not an ordinal. There is no ordinal number just before $\Omega$. – bof May 30 '20 at 10:43
  • @bof I don't know then. I was trying to use it as an intuitive shorthand for how to visualise the right hand end of the long line. My bad. – Prime Mover May 30 '20 at 11:10