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It seems like in mathematics there are two separate meanings of the word axiom:

One is like the real or natural numbers, whose axiomatization is based off on concrete objects.

The other is like with the definition of a metric space. The is no notion of what a metric space is beyond its axioms.

Here is what bugs me about this: when discussing axioms in the sense of concrete objects, we can add new axioms; it seems like we can't do the same with vector or metric spaces. I get the first type of axiom, but not the second. The second supposedly sounds like game formalism, which not very many people adopt. Yet, this is the apparent definition, which paints mathematicians, in my mind, as being game formalists not knowing what their symbols are for or how they apply even to pure math (obviously not in their specialty, but at least some of the stuff they fly by in undergraduate math). Clearly, I am missing something. Now to be specific about what I'm asking:

Does this distinction (between axioms based off of concrete things and... I don't know what the other one is based off of) really exist or am I imagining it? If I am not imagining it, then can someone explain what this type of axiom is based off of and why we study them so much?

If I am imagining it, then my question becomes why? Are things like metric spaces merely generalizations of what we know to exist, just like with real numbers? The second part of my question is then:

If we're were to find something that everything we know as metric space has in common, would we change it's definition to accommodate the axiom just like for the reals?

This question has two parts, so please comment on both if you are going to respond.

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    You sound a lot like the guy that lasted one semester in my PhD program –  Jun 08 '20 at 02:13
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    A metric space is definitely based off of intuition and concrete spaces. – John Douma Jun 08 '20 at 02:13
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    @Renard hey I'm just wondering – Pineapple Fish Jun 08 '20 at 02:15
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    I don't know what you mean by "can't add new axioms". Vector spaces, for example, can be expanded to modules over commutative (or noncommutative) rings and can be specialized to normed vector spaces or topological vectors spaces. You seem to be thinking people sit around making stuff up. Ideas are created by having actual examples in mind: all this axiomatic mumbo-jumbo is based on concrete goals by people seriously studying actual math problems. – KCd Jun 08 '20 at 02:20
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    It is worth also mentioning that the problems we are interested in come first. The definitions come after and are intentionally crafted so as to be useful to solve the problems or describe the objects we are interested in. – JMoravitz Jun 08 '20 at 02:23
  • @KCd change the fundamental axioms of the vector space, those which all of them have in common. About "Ideas are..." Thank you this helps! I know this is a super basic question, but I'm trying to teach math to myself so it isn't obvious as it would seem – Pineapple Fish Jun 08 '20 at 02:24
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    "One is like the real or natural numbers, whose axiomatization is based off on concrete objects.

    The other is like with the definition of a metric space. The is no notion of what a metric space is beyond its axioms. " I disagree with both this statements. Especially the second! A metric space is based on measuring distances. It's far more concrete and real then the definition of numbers. A map of your county is a metric space! The geometric plane is a metric space!

    – fleablood Jun 08 '20 at 03:47
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    "when discussing axioms in the sense of concrete objects, we can add new axioms; " What do you mean? Can you give an example? I've never heard of such a thing. – fleablood Jun 08 '20 at 03:51
  • @fleablood I know that there are many examples of metric space. Yes, I suppose what I am trying to say is that there is no "one" example of what metric spaces are, rather (if I understand correctly now) that there are many examples which we unite. What I mean by concrete is that there is more detail in the notion of real numbers (the one taught to high schoolers; the concept you have in your head) than in their axioms. True our 'notion' of real is fuzzy, but by concrete I mean 'tangible' by itself, I guess. I will add that to the question when I have time. "Can you give an..." Na, if I could – Pineapple Fish Jun 08 '20 at 04:05
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    You have subjective opinions about what objects are concrete and which ones aren't. But you distinctions are utterly subjective and there is no discernable difference There's no "one" example of what numbers are either. – fleablood Jun 08 '20 at 04:10
  • @fleablood (Cont.) I would be famous. It's more about the idea. If the definition of a real number is discovered as a concrete thing in the real world, then new discoveries would lead us to change our axioms - but if the real numbers are defined by our axioms, i.e. invented in sense, then we would not see the need to change them as we make new discoveries. It's not asking about an actual new axiom, it's more of a litmus test. Idk if that makes sense, but hopefully so. – Pineapple Fish Jun 08 '20 at 04:10
  • @fleablood So a better example is the rationals. Both the reals and rationals share some axioms, but that does not make them the same. It begs the question: We could theoretically define operations on sets of hypothetical horses and sheep (Hilbert) that would satisfy the axioms of real numbers. But this is absurd, obviously we are missing something. This is the question as for the rationals, surely our axiomatization is not complete both by the incompleteness theorems and our intuition. If you can prove to me that all known properties of the real numbers as a notion come from our – Pineapple Fish Jun 08 '20 at 04:21
  • Current axioms I will believe you. – Pineapple Fish Jun 08 '20 at 04:21
  • @fleablood What do you mean? the real numbers are one entity. From a categorical or abstractly algebraic view there are infinitely many examples because they must only satisfy a few axioms/universal properties. I guess another way of putting it is that the average person you'll meet on a street would not say that what is a real number is subjective at all. When classifying real or natural numbers the object we speak of is unique and intuitively we check that something satisfies it not just by being slightly familiar, but exactly the same so that nothing which isn't the object also satisfiesit. – Pineapple Fish Jun 08 '20 at 05:12
  • In other words (maybe this is less hand-wavy) for a concrete object you check that it "is" something by not just saying what it is but what it isn't, in contrast to axioms where a finite number of things it 'is' is enough (an axiom only describes a few of an infinite amount of interesting properties we may discover about a concrete object). We can explore the real numbers without total axiomatization as people did for hundreds of years. – Pineapple Fish Jun 08 '20 at 05:12
  • Also why downvote? This is a website for teaching and building people's understanding, so the burden of proof is on you (as I said, guy on the street vs person in the field). I apologise if my lack of understanding in this area is cringey, but it is genuine. – Pineapple Fish Jun 08 '20 at 05:12

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This doesn't sound like what you have in mind, but here is my favorite axiomatic result.

Start with an example, called Condorcet's Paradox. There are three people, 1, 2, and 3. They have preferences over alternatives A, B, and C. Their preference orderings are: \begin{eqnarray} 1: A \succ B \succ C\\ 2: B \succ C \succ A \\ 3: C \succ A \succ B \end{eqnarray} Notice that each individual has a complete, transitive preorder over the set $\{A,B,c\}$. They have to pick one of the options as a group, like a political candidate or a tax code or whatever. They decide, ``Hey, let's use pairwise majority voting to establish a social preference ordering $\succ^*$ over the alternatives." They run A against B, and A wins, so $A \succ^* B$. They run B against C, and B wins, so $B \succ^* C$. They run A against C and C wins, so $C \succ^* A$. But then we have $$ A \succ^* B \succ^* C \succ^* A \succ^*... $$ and even though the individuals have complete, transitive preorders over the alternatives, society does not, using this voting rule. In practice, the outcome here would depend on agenda control: what sequence of alternatives is run off against which, to determine the winner?

Then you say, "Well, pairwise majority voting is maybe no good, or somehow pathological. Perhaps we can fix this." Well, what do you even mean by that? Presumably you mean that for any set of individuals and any preference orderings they have over alternatives, there exists some mapping from their orderings to a single ordering for society that satisfies some desirable criteria. But how do you make any of the preceding words in this paragraph make sense?

Suppose there are greater than two alternatives. Is there a complete, transitive preorder $\succ^*$ that aggregates the preferences of the people in society in an attractive way? The axioms Arrow picked are:

  • Unresticted domain: over the $N$ alternatives, the voting rule must select an alternative for any possible set of preferences the people have
  • Independence of irrelevant alternative: the social preference relation should depend only on the two alternatives under consideration; i.e., society has a complete, transitive relation over alternatives, where $x \succ^* y$ if society prefers $x$ to $y$, and this does not depend on whether some other alternative $z$ was available
  • Positive responsiveness: if any individual switches their ordering to favor $x$ over $y$, $x$ cannot become less likely to be selected than $y$
  • Pareto optimality: if every individual prefers $x$ to $y$, $x$ must be ranked by the social preference relation over $y$
  • No Dictator: the social preference ordering does not simply equal the preferences of a single individual in society (because of unrestricted domain, this is more meaningful than it seems)

Each of these properties seems to capture some attractive feature of a decision making process for society, except perhaps for Independence, about which there has been a ton of additional research. There are literally thousands of papers that relax or substitute axioms in the above set.

Arrow showed that there does not exist a way of aggregating the complete, transitive preorders of the members of society into a complete, transitive preorder $\succ^*$ with the above properties. In fact, Arrow's proof is basically to show that if the other four properties hold, there must be a dictator, and any complete, transitive social preorder is equivalent to just endowing a single member of society with all decision-making power.

So you might have looked at Condorcet's Paradox and said, "well, let's give people points to spend on each alternative, and use those to aggregate." No, that's the Borda Count, it fails. Many clever people have played this game. Anything you come up with must violate one or more of the axioms.

Is that not shocking? Does that not both make you skeptical about our institutions, but also rationalize so much confusion and frustration you have experienced with society? You might have thought Condorcet's Paradox was some kind of anomaly, but it points at a much bigger and more serious problem. Groups of people are fundamentally not rational, unless their actions correspond to the preferences of a single person or they are all already fundamentally in agreement (so that everyone is a dictator).

Now, without the axiomatic framework, how could you have ever come to such a conclusion? You can't evaluate every possible voting rule for every possible profile of preferences. By using axioms that capture essential features of objects we are familiar with, we can study huge classes of them all at once, coming to conclusions by deductive reasoning that would never have been possible with inductive reasoning. This isn't asking what the essential properties of $x \cdot y$ are and extrapolating to inner product spaces or $\sqrt{\sum_{i=1}^n x_i^2}$ and abstracting to the concept of a metric.

The reason I like this so much is that before I saw the analysis, I didn't realize that thinking about such a thing was even possible. Being able to abstract way from examples to determine the essence of a thing in axiomatic form and then prove results is a super powerful way to access ideas that would never be available just by sticking with what we know, or by incrementally expanding definitions of known mathematical systems.

So I guess what I am saying is that nothing exists and the only truth is actually the math.