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I came across this map in an exercise, $$f\colon\left\{\begin{array}{rcl} \color{red}{\mathbb{R} \times \mathbb{R}^{3}} & \longrightarrow & \mathbb{R}^{3} \\ \left(t, \begin{pmatrix} x \\ y \\ z \end{pmatrix}\right) & \longmapsto & \begin{pmatrix} x+y+z+t \\ x^{2}+y^{2}+z^{2}+t-2 \\ x^{3}+y^{3}+z^{3}+t^{2} \end{pmatrix}. \end{array}\right.$$

The question is, do we have $\mathbb{R} \times \mathbb{R}^{3}= \mathbb{R}^{4}$ and thus the author wrote $\mathbb{R} \times \mathbb{R}^{3}$ with an ordered pair $\left(t, \begin{pmatrix} x \\ y \\ z \end{pmatrix}\right)$ for conveniance/the sake of clarity in a certain purpose. Or is $\mathbb{R} \times \mathbb{R}^{3}$ really different from $\mathbb{R}^{4}$ by definition, conceptually or structurally ? And thus this notation would be mandatory and we would only have $\mathbb{R} \times \mathbb{R}^{3} \simeq \mathbb{R}^{4}$.

I guess we have the equality for two reasons:

  1. Because we have $\mathbb{R}^{n}= \underbrace{\mathbb{R} \times \ldots \times \mathbb{R}}_{n \text{ times}}$ by definition, and this definition/notation suggests that we can do $$\color{red}{\mathbb{R}} \times \mathbb{R}^{3}= \color{red}{\mathbb{R}} \times \mathbb{R} \times \mathbb{R} \times \mathbb{R}= \mathbb{R}^{4}$$

  2. As I remember we do have by definition $(x,y,z,t):= (x,(y,z,t))$ with a recursive definition, until we get to an ordered pair defined by $(a,b)= \{ a, \{ a,b \}\}$. Thus, since we have $\left(t, \begin{pmatrix} x \\ y \\ z \end{pmatrix}\right)=(t,x,y,z)$ which is an element of $\mathbb{R}^{4}$, thus we would have $\color{red}{(?)}$ in $$\mathbb{R} \times \mathbb{R}^{3}:= \mathbb{R} \times \{ (x,y,z) : x,y,z \in \mathbb{R} \}= \{ (t,(x,y,z)) : t,x,y,z \in \mathbb{R} \} \underset{\color{red}{(?)}}{=} \{ (t,x,y,z) : t,x,y,z \in \mathbb{R} \} := \mathbb{R}^{4}$$

Flowt
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  • I think that it depends on the context. There isn’t a canonical isomorphism between these spaces, but there is a standard isomorphism. – Michael Burr Jun 06 '22 at 10:01
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    @MichaelBurr What is the difference between a canonical and a standard isomorphism? – J. De Ro Jun 06 '22 at 10:03
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    Canonical has a precise meaning, but comes down to that there is a best isomorphism that preserves some properties. By standard, I mean that there’s one that most everyone would guess (just put the coordinates in order), even though it isn’t forced from the theory. – Michael Burr Jun 06 '22 at 10:06
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    @MichaelBurr I'm ignorant of these things, but isn't it the case that, in any category with binary products, the product operation is associative? so in any category with products we have $X\times X^3\cong X^4$ for all objects $X$. and I'm not sure but it seems to me that this isomorphism is natural in the sense of category theory, ie the maps $X\times X^3\cong X^4$ and $Y\times Y^3\cong Y^4$ will commute with any morphism $X\to Y$. so wouldn't this be an argument that this isomorphism is "canonical"? – Atticus Stonestrom Jun 06 '22 at 10:49
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    Standard set theory Cartesian product isn't associative. However, if we define $X^{n + 1} = X \times X^n$ (and not $X^n \times X$), then we still have $\mathbb R^4$ and $\mathbb R \times \mathbb R^3$ is exactly the same set. – mihaild Jun 06 '22 at 10:55
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  • From a strict constructivist point of view, at most one of $\Bbb R^3 \times \Bbb R, \Bbb R^2 \times \Bbb R^2, \Bbb R \times \Bbb R^3$ is equal to $\Bbb R^4$. Which, if any, will depend on exactly how you define $\Bbb R^4$. But from a practical point of view, all four spaces behave exactly the same, so there is no useful distinctlion between them. Thus we tend to treat them as being the same, and do not worry about dotting the i's and crossing the t's of the isomorphisms. – Paul Sinclair Jun 07 '22 at 02:49
  • The tuples $(t, (x, y, z))$ and $(t, x, y, z)$ are clearly not the same, so I would say that $\mathbb{R} \times \mathbb{R}^3 \not = \mathbb{R}^4$ – Smiley1000 Jun 07 '22 at 20:11
  • @Smiley1000 It is : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuple An $n$-tuple, with $n>0$, can be defined as an ordered pair of its first entry and an $(n−1)$-tuple (which contains the remaining entries when $n>1$) $(a_{1},a_{2},a_{3}, \ldots ,a_{n})=(a_{1},(a_{2},a_{3}, \ldots ,a_{n}))$ – Flowt Jun 08 '22 at 17:06
  • @Flowt That's one possible construction of tuples within set theory. But it's not a defining property of tuples. We could also construct tuples in a different way (for example by storing them as a pair of an $(n-1)$-tuple and the last entry). Wikipedia gives multiple other constructions. – Smiley1000 Jun 08 '22 at 17:26
  • @Smiley1000 that's the common construction of tuples (almost every book use it). – Flowt Jun 08 '22 at 19:41
  • @Flowt It's still not a part of the defininig property of tuples, merely a coincidence due to how they're usually constructed. – Smiley1000 Jun 08 '22 at 19:47
  • @Flowt As another example, consider the statement $1 \in 3$. Of course this is correct with the usual construction of the ordinal numbers that almost everyone uses. But it's not a meaningful statement in any way because set membership is not part of the defining properties of the natural numbers (the peano axioms). Similarly, the defining property of tuples is simply that they are equal if the elements at the same positions in the tuple are equal. We should assume nothing more of them. – Smiley1000 Jun 08 '22 at 20:02
  • @Smiley1000 Not sure about your 2 answers, you can convince me by backing up your statements. – Flowt Jun 08 '22 at 20:20
  • @Flowt I'm not quite sure which part needs backing up. The defining property of tuples can be found under the "Properties" section in the Wikipedia article about tuples. The usual construction of the ordinal numbers can be found in the Wikipedia article about ordinal numbers and the peano axioms have their appropriate page as well. – Smiley1000 Jun 08 '22 at 20:33
  • @Smiley1000 Those are the properties expected of the tuples, that's why the section is titled "Properties" and not "Definition". I ask you for a definition of tuples since you don't accept the Kuratowski's one (the common cited previously). – Flowt Jun 08 '22 at 21:06
  • @Floft I certainly do accept that definition. However, if we want to talk about some properties that the cartesian product has and that tuples have, we should only consider properties that are shared by all of the definitions, since these are what actually make tuples tuples. For example, the "tuples as functions" definition does not admit the property that $(t, (x, y, z)) = (t, x, y, z)$. – Smiley1000 Jun 08 '22 at 21:20
  • @Flowt To explain my insistence regarding this topic: I come from a functional programming background, where it is very clear that $(t, (x, y, z))$ and $(t, x, y, z)$ are not even comparable because their types are completely different. Programming also strongly encourages the idea of hiding the implementation of a data structure. This is why I feel very strongly that we should not confuse the defining property that tuples have (that they're equal if the elements at each position are equal) with how tuples are actually "implemented"/defined (for example as functions or nested pairs). – Smiley1000 Jun 08 '22 at 21:21
  • @Flowt Of course, in mathematics based on set theory, variables have no types (they're all just sets), so this kind of argument regarding the types doesn't literally apply here. But the same principle still applies - if there are different definitions (tuples based on functions / nested pairs / ...), we should only use the common properties of these definitions and not the ones specific to some definition. – Smiley1000 Jun 08 '22 at 21:23
  • @Flowt So if $\mathbb{R} \times \mathbb{R}^3 = \mathbb{R}^4$ only holds when we use a certain definition of tuples (the nested pairs definition) but not when we use some other definition of tuples (for example the function definition) then we should not assume this equality at all since it depends on the specific definitions that we choose. – Smiley1000 Jun 08 '22 at 21:26
  • @Smiley1000 First, I appreciate your efforts and the time you gave for this explanation and want to thank you for that. You actually spot a good thing that we should keep in mind while defining objects, which is obviously what do we want it to do, rather than what do we want it to be (like in https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/2376563/what-is-the-definition-of-mathbb-rn where the ontological and the phenomenological points are cited). However you cannot keep an object with an intuitive defnition like "a tuple is a list of ordered objects", it seems to be enough but – Flowt Jun 09 '22 at 06:25
  • keeping objects defined by intuition can give you problems on the higher constructions of mathematics, I'm sure you already know this with the Russel paradox or something else. That's from the fundaments crisis that we kept the need for defining with formal definitions. At this point I'm not sure if you tend to accept a bigger intuitive/formal ratio point of view since you said " Similarly, the defining property of tuples is simply that they are equal if the elements at the same positions in the tuple are equal. We should assume nothing more of them.", or the opposite point of view since you – Flowt Jun 09 '22 at 06:29
  • recognize that we must keep a formal definition and that it can change the properties on the higher construction of mathematics and can maybe change our view of the said object (philosophy of Wittgenstein if I don't make a mistake). – Flowt Jun 09 '22 at 06:36
  • To borrow your own language, by definition $\mathbb R \times \mathbb R^3$ is different from $\mathbb R^4$, but conceptually and structurally it is really the same. This, at least, is how one should learn to think about it once one gets sufficiently confident with set theoretical formalities and starts putting those formalities to practice in analysis. – Lee Mosher Jun 09 '22 at 13:57

2 Answers2

1

Hier are some aspects which might be helpful. This answer is based upon naive set theory, neither using axiomatic set theory nor formal logic. Nevertheless I think this approach is sufficient to gain some insight.

Sets usually carry additional structure

We have to be carefully, when considering \begin{align*} \mathbb{R} \times \mathbb{R}^{3}= \mathbb{R}^{4}\qquad\mathrm{vs.}\qquad \mathbb{R} \times \mathbb{R}^{3} \simeq \mathbb{R}^{4} \end{align*} Since for instance in OPs example \begin{align*} &f\colon\mathbb{R} \times \mathbb{R}^{3} \longrightarrow \mathbb{R}^{3} \tag{1}\\ &f(t,(x,y,z)) =\begin{pmatrix} x+y+z+t \\ x^{2}+y^{2}+z^{2}+t-2 \\ x^{3}+y^{3}+z^{3}+t^{2} \end{pmatrix} \end{align*} the sets $\mathbb{R}$ and $\mathbb{R}^3$ are not only sets, they are endowed with a vector space structure over the field $\mathbb{R}$, resp. with the field structure of $\mathbb{R}$ in order to do arithmetical operations.

This rather indicates the appropriate question in (1) is not about set-isomorphisms $\mathbb{R} \times \mathbb{R}^{3} \simeq \mathbb{R}^{4}$ and set-equality $\mathbb{R} \times \mathbb{R}^{3}=\mathbb{R}^{4}$ but vectorspace-isomorphisms between $\mathbb{R} \times \mathbb{R}^{3} \simeq \mathbb{R}^{4}$ and vectorspace-equality instead. We know from linear algebra that as vectorspaces they are isomorphic. Usually we don't consider them as being equal.

In the following we restrict considerations solely to sets without additional structure and to set-isomorphisms.

The essential property of $n$-tupel is order

We can read in section 6, Naive Set Theory by P. R. Halmos:

  • ... This set is called the Cartesian product of $A$ and $B$; it is characterized by the fact that \begin{align*} A\times B=\{x:x=(a,b)\ \text{ for some }a\text{ in }A\text{ and for some }b\text{ in }B\}\tag{2} \end{align*} The Cartesian product of two sets is a set of ordered pairs (that is, a set each of whose elements is an odered pair), and the same is true of every subset of a Cartesian product. It is of technical importance to know that we can go in the converse direction also: every set of ordered pairs is a subset of the Cartesian product of two sets.

We observe the essential properties of elements here are ordered pairs. So, we have some kind of ordering and some kind of two-ness. This indicates we can talk about set-isomorphims between $\mathbb{R} \times \mathbb{R}^{3}$ and $\mathbb{R}^{4}$, but not about equality, since \begin{align*} \color{blue}{\mathbb{R}^{4}=\{(a,b,c,d): a,b,c,d\in\mathbb{R}\}} \end{align*} is characterized via $4$-tupel, while in \begin{align*} \color{blue}{\mathbb{R}\times \mathbb{R}^{3}=\{(a,(b,c,d)): a\in\mathbb{R},(b,c,d)\in\mathbb{R}^3\}} \end{align*} we have ordered pairs.

Definition of $n$-tupel

There is more than one way to define $n$-tupel. One is given by OP when ordered pairs $(a,b)$ are defined as set \begin{align*} (a,b):=\{\{a\},\{a,b\}\} \end{align*} We can in the same way define $4$-tupel as \begin{align*} (a,b,c,d):=\{\{a\},\{a,b\},\{a,b,c\},\{a,b,c,d\}\} \end{align*} and note, the essential property of $n$-tupel is order, not necessarily the way it is defined. Each useful definition has just to incorporate this essential property.

Using for instance this definition we again see, that as sets the $4$-tupel $(a,b,c,d)$ and the ordered pair $(a,(b,c,d))$ \begin{align*} (a,b,c,d)&:=\{\{a\},\{a,b\},\{a,b,c\},\{a,b,c,d\}\}\\ (a,(b,c,d))&:=\{\{a\},\{\{a\}, (b,c,d)\}\}=\{\{a\},\{\{a\},\{\{b\},\{b,c\},\{b,c,d\}\}\}\} \end{align*} are different. But there is a set-isomorphism $\mathbb{R}\times \mathbb{R}^{3}\simeq \mathbb{R}^{4}$

Conclusion: We have a set-isomorphism $\mathbb{R}\times \mathbb{R}^{3}\simeq \mathbb{R}^{4}$ which is usually not considered to be an equality. Nevertheless sometimes it is convenient, as we have seen in OPs example of inductive definition of $\mathbb{R}^n=\mathbb{R}\times\mathbb{R}^{n-1}$ to identify these sets.

Note:

  • Regarding OPs question, if the author when defining the function $f$ has done this for the sake of clarity and/or with a specific purpose. The answer yes seems plausbile, since we have a slightly different notation of variables, $t$ (time) on the one hand and $x,y,z$ (space) on the other hand.

  • Another technical aspect is: We sometimes use the $j$-th projection map to select the $j$-th component of an $n$-tupel. In case of $\mathbb{R}\times \mathbb{R}^{3}$ we have \begin{align*} \pi_2(t,(x,y,z))=(x,y,z) \end{align*} whereas in $ \mathbb{R}^{4}$ we have \begin{align*} \pi_2(t,x,y,z)=x \end{align*}

Markus Scheuer
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To paraphrase Matthew

Sufficient unto the day is the rigor thereof.

In the context of the exercise that's the source of the question, whether those vector spaces are equal or isomorphic does not matter. The author's meaning is clear to the reader.

Requiring more formal precision would make it harder to understand what the exercise is designed to teach.

As other answers and the long comment thread with @Smiley1000 show, there are other contexts where the distinction may be important.

Ethan Bolker
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