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At some point I discovered that the 'degree' of an interval (unison, sixth, ...) is simply determined by writing it as $\;t\text{ major seconds} + s\text{ sharps}\;$ (both $\;t\;$ and $\;s\;$ can be negative, for example$\;-2\text{ sharps} = 2\text{ flats}\;$; and this 'factorization' is unique), and then $\;t\;$ completely determines the degree:

  • $\;t+1\;$ being $1$ is a unison, $2$ is a second, ..., $5$ is a fifth, ..., $8$ is an octave, etc.
  • $\;t-1\;$ being $-1$ is an inverted unison, $-2$ is an inverted second, ..., $-5$ is an inverted fifth, ..., $-8$ is an inverted octave, etc.

(Note how I also could have chosen minor seconds instead of major seconds. Note also that this doesn't say that e.g. $\;t=7\;$ major seconds make up an octave; it just says that $7$ major seconds differs from an octave by at most a number of sharps.)

Relatedly, I discovered that if you want to know the 'quality' of a musical interval (whether it is e.g. augmented or perfect or minor), then the simplest way is to write the interval (again uniquely, again positive and negative integers allowed) as $\;f\text{ fifths} + o\text{ octaves}\;$, and then $\;f\;$ completely determines the quality:

  • $\;f\;$ from $-1$ to $5$ is major (but see below!), from $6$ to $12$ is augmented, from $13$ to $19$ is doubly augmented, etc.
  • $\;f\;$ from $1$ to $-5$ is minor (but see below!), from $-6$ to $-12$ is diminished, from $-13$ to $-19$ is doubly diminished, etc.
  • Except if $\;f\;$ is between $-1$ and $1$ then we don't call it major and minor, but instead perfect.

Note how this gives 'blocks' of 7 that all have the same quality, so all are major, or all doubly diminished.

More mathematically, $\;h(f) = \max(0, \left\lfloor (f+8)/7 \right\rfloor)\;$ determines how 'major' an interval with $\;f\;$ fifths is (and $\;h(-f)\;$ how 'minor' it is); so that $\;h(f)-h(-f)\;$ is $0$ for a perfect interval, $2$ for an augmented one, $-1$ for a minor one, etc.

So for example, the interval of $\;10\text{ fifths} - 6 \text{ octaves} \;=\; -2\text{ major seconds} + 2\text{ sharps}\;$ (e.g. from E♭ to the C♯ below it) is the inverted third ($\;t-1=-3\;$) that is augmented ($\;f=10\;$). Which we don't normally call the augmented inverted third, but instead the inverted diminished third (where the move of "inverted" flips between major and minor).


Note how each 'factoring' is really writing an interval as a linear combination of basis vectors, either of $\;(1\text{ fifth}, 1\text{ octave})\;$ or of $\;(1\text{ major second}, 1\text{ sharp})\;$.

Also, note that this is simple in computational or mathematical terms, not necessarily for human day-to-day use.


My question: Is this explained any in music theory resource, preferably online, where I perhaps could also find some more background and musical and mathematical connections?

Because I can't imagine I would be the first to discover this.

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    Try looking into the book of Dave Benson https://homepages.abdn.ac.uk/d.j.benson/pages/html/maths-music.html – Giuseppe Negro Nov 10 '22 at 22:18
  • An earlier answer of mine that is related: https://math.stackexchange.com/a/4156716/11994 – MarnixKlooster ReinstateMonica Nov 10 '22 at 22:20
  • @GiuseppeNegro I have a copy of that book somewhere, can't remember seeing anything like this in there, but I will check again soon, thanks! – MarnixKlooster ReinstateMonica Nov 10 '22 at 22:22
  • Oh sorry then, you may know the book better than I do. Mine was just a generic, unfocused comment. I am not 100% sure the answer is there. – Giuseppe Negro Nov 10 '22 at 22:25
  • For the record, I've checked Benson and I could find nothing directly related to this question. – MarnixKlooster ReinstateMonica Nov 21 '22 at 13:42
  • @MarnikKlooster: Which means that my comment was useless. Sorry if you wasted time because of it. Maybe I should refrain from "thinking out loud" in comments like that – Giuseppe Negro Nov 22 '22 at 19:34
  • @GiuseppeNegro No problem at all, Benson could very well have mentioned this, and there are at least strongly related things in there. But it turns out all of those are directly related to tuning and frequency intervals, as opposed to the 'logical' intervals that this question is about. – MarnixKlooster ReinstateMonica Nov 24 '22 at 10:44
  • All this looks very natural. There is logic in the way tonal music is organised and intervals named, and you re-discovered it. Whether someone already explained that as clearly and tersely as you do, is not sure, however. Still there are some typos: you probably want to say "$f$ from $-2$ to $-5$ is minor, from $2$ to $5$ is major, $-1$ and $1$ are perfect". And this derives from the fact that the (natural) minor scale has reversed intervals when compared to the major scale. – Jean-Armand Moroni Dec 06 '22 at 21:43
  • @Jean-ArmandMoroni No typo there, I think: That is why I added the third "Except if $;f;$ is between $-1$ and $1$..." point. – MarnixKlooster ReinstateMonica Dec 09 '22 at 06:37
  • @MarnixKloosterReinstateMonica Well, yes, stricto sensu that's not wrong. But that's like defining a fonction $f$ by: 1) if $x \le 1$ then $f(x)=\dots$; 2) if $x \ge -1$ then $f(x)=\dots$; 3) except if $x \in [-1, 1]$ then $f(x)=\dots$. Everybody would rather write three disjoint cases, e.g. $x < -1$, $-1 \le x \le 1$, $x > 1$. Here, someone which reads "from $-1$ to $5$ is major, (...)" reacts "Hey! That's wrong!"; and then next line "from $1$ to $-5$ is minor", reacts "He is redefining the cases from $-1$ to $1$... and that's still wrong!"; and then next line, at least the "Except (...)". – Jean-Armand Moroni Dec 09 '22 at 13:59
  • @Jean-ArmandMoroni Fair point, but I wasn't writing a mathematics textbook. :-) I should probably put that exceptional case first... But what I tried to emphasize, is that there are blocks of 7 qualities that are (doubly, triply) augmented and (doubly, triply) diminished. So the most natural way to view things is that there are also 7 qualities that are major, and 7 that are minor. Which leads me to "perfect = major and minor" which seems the simplest way to 'formalize' what is going on here. – MarnixKlooster ReinstateMonica Dec 09 '22 at 14:08
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    OK! So you could be French like I am. :-) In France we say that zero is both a positive and a negative number, but reading MSE it looks like the majority says zero is neither positive nor negative. I acknowledge your presentation has the advantage that there are $7$ major intervals, $7$ minor, $7$ augmented, $7$ diminished, etc., instead of $5$ major, $5$ minor, $3$ perfect, and $7$ for all other qualities. – Jean-Armand Moroni Dec 09 '22 at 14:23
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    @GiuseppeNegro your comment may not have been useful for this specific question but it was useful to the community as a whole. I certainly gained from it. Even being completely wrong and having someone correct you can help others avoid the same pitfalls. I would encourage you to keep "thinking out loud" in the comments rather than refrain from it. – CyclotomicField Dec 10 '22 at 13:08

1 Answers1

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(Answer edited after discussion in comments)

The first point, about the degree of an interval (unison, second, third etc.) comes from the fact that each major second moves one place on the scale (i.e. one place up on the staff). So adding major seconds gives a bijection between the number of added major seconds, and the place on staff, nothwithstanding flats or sharps. The interval degree is named after the number of places on the staff between the two notes, hence the correspondance with added major seconds.

It is not easy to search for such references in music books. However I feel it is not much probable that such an explanation of degrees would be found in a music book. The reason is: for tonal music, adding major seconds makes sense only up to $2$ or $3$ major seconds, not above. Even "$3$ major seconds, minus one sharp" (let's say for C-F) is very rarely useful:

  • in G major, in a transition to C major (hence the natural F instead of F sharp: this gives our "minus one sharp");
  • in G flat major, in a transition to D flat major (hence the natural C instead of C flat; this gives the "minus one sharp").

In all other uses, the interval C-F is heard as two major seconds and one minor second, in any order:

  • two major seconds then one minor second, in C major or F major;
  • one minor second then two major seconds, in D flat major or A flat major;
  • one major second then one minor second then one major second, in B flat major or E flat major.

In a whole-tone scale, describing intervals as additions of major seconds makes much more sense $-$ but music books (at least the ones which care to define interval names, which are for beginners) are written with tonal music in mind.


For rhe second point, about quality of an interval, I found a reference for the naming related to the fifths. This is from Laurent Fichet's book (in French) "Les théories scientifiques de la musique", $1995$, p. $73$.

This book explains $19$th and $20$th centuries scientific theories about music, both tonal and atonal, concentrating on intervals, consonance, etc. The table below is extracted from the description of Charles Henry's theories.

Although the text does not mention that from $+2$ to $+5$ it is major, etc., this is obvious from reading the table, apart in two places where an alternate name is used (chromatic semitone and diatonic semitone, instead of augmented unison and diminished second).

This table comes from Charles Henry's book "Cercle chromatique" p. $115$ and can be seen here: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k109169f/f114.item

The strangest thing is that Charles Henry's book deals more with general and visual aesthetics than auditive ones. I am pretty sure the same table can be found in more usual music books.

names of intervals and numbers of perfect fiths

  • "Your description is not exact": Well, C-B is $;6\text{ major seconds} \underline{{} - 1\text{ sharp}};$. Therefore $;t=6;$, so $;t+1=7;$, so this is a 7th. So I think my description is correct on that point? – MarnixKlooster ReinstateMonica Dec 09 '22 at 06:57
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    @MarnixKloosterReinstateMonica OK. Then you should say that in "$t$ major seconds $+s$ sharps", $s$ can be negative, otherwise it is puzzling: in usual music practice, flats are used instead of negative sharps. I'll correct my text tonight when I'll have more time. – Jean-Armand Moroni Dec 09 '22 at 14:15
  • Question updated, see the diff. I'll wait for any other input, and otherwise the bounty is yours. Thanks for your answer! – MarnixKlooster ReinstateMonica Dec 10 '22 at 12:17