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Suppose I have two dice : $D_1$ and $D_2$. Both $D_1$ and $D_2$ have 6 sides.

  • If $D_1$ = 1, there is a $1/6$ probability that $D_2$ will take any number from 1 to 6
  • If $D_1$ = 2, there is a $1/6$ probability that $D_2$ will take any number from 1 to 6
  • If $D_1$ = 3, there is a $1/6$ probability that $D_2$ will take any number from 1 to 6
  • If $D_1$ = 4, there is a $1/6$ probability that $D_2$ will take any number from 1 to 6
  • If $D_1$ = 5, there is a $1/6$ probability that $D_2$ will take any number from 1 to 6
  • If $D_1$ = 6, there is a $1/2$ probability that $D_2$ will be 6, and a $1/2$ probability that $D_2$ take any number from 1 to 5 (divided equally)

My Problem: Let's define a Random Variable called $Z$ such that $Z$ = $D_1$ + $D_2$ (i.e. sum of the rolls from both dice). I am interested in finding out a probability distribution of $Z$ so that I can find out the Expected Value of $Z$, i.e. $E(Z)$ and the Variance of $Z$, i.e. $Var(Z)$.

Here is what I tried so far:

Part 1: To begin this question, I first wrote the Probability Mass Function of $Z=z$ (here $X$ is the result of the first roll and $Y$ is the result of the second roll):

\begin{align*} P(Y = j | X = i) = \begin{cases} 0.5 & \text{if } i = 6 \text{ and } j = 6 \\ \frac{1}{10} & \text{if } i = 6 \text{ and } j \neq 6 \\ \frac{1}{6} & \text{if } i \neq 6 \end{cases} \end{align*}

Part 2: Then, I extended this concept to the Expected Value :

$$E(Z) = \sum_{i=1}^{6} \sum_{j=1}^{6} P(X = i, Y = j | X = i) \cdot [i + j = z]$$

$$E(Z^2) = \sum_{i=1}^{6} \sum_{j=1}^{6} P(X = i, Y = j | X = i) \cdot [i + j = z]^2$$

Part 3: Here, there will be covariance in certain cases. Since $Cov(X,Y) = E(XY) - E(X)E(Y)$, I can write:

$$E(XY) = \sum_{i=1}^{6} \sum_{j=1}^{6} P(X = i, Y = j | X = i) \cdot (i \cdot j)$$ $$E(X)E(Y) = \left(\sum_{i=1}^{6} P(X = i) \cdot i\right) \cdot \left(\sum_{j=1}^{6} P(Y = j | X = i) \cdot j\right)$$ $$Cov(X,Y) = E(XY) - E(X)E(Y) = \sum_{i=1}^{6} \sum_{j=1}^{6} P(X = i, Y = j | X = i) \cdot (i \cdot j) - \left(\sum_{i=1}^{6} P(X = i) \cdot i\right) \cdot \left(\sum_{j=1}^{6} P(Y = j | X = i) \cdot j\right)$$

Part 4: Using the identity that $Var(Z) = Var(X) + Var(Y) - 2Cov(X,Y)$ and $Var(Z) = E(Z^2) - E(Z)^2$, I can write:

$$Var(Z) = \sum_{i=1}^{6} \sum_{j=1}^{6} P(X = i, Y = j | X = i) \cdot [i + j = z]^2 + (\sum_{i=1}^{6} \sum_{j=1}^{6} P(X = i, Y = j | X = i) \cdot [i + j = z])^2 - (\sum_{i=1}^{6} \sum_{j=1}^{6} P(X = i, Y = j | X = i) \cdot (i \cdot j) - \left(\sum_{i=1}^{6} P(X = i) \cdot i\right) \cdot \left(\sum_{j=1}^{6} P(Y = j | X = i) \cdot j\right))$$

My Question:

  • Have I done this correctly?

  • Suppose I have some observed data, e.g. Roll 1 = (x1,y1), Roll 2 = (x2, y2), ... Roll 2 = (xn, yn) etc. : I want to estimate the probabilities within the $Var(Z)$ formula based on this observed data. I think I should just be able to use the Maximum Likelihood Estimator for each probability? (i.e. of all the times $D_1 = 1$, how many of these times was $D_2 = 2$, $D_2 = 3$, $D_2 = 4$, $D_2 = 5$, $D_2 = 6$, etc. Of course, these will all be independent probabilities except for when $D_1 = 6$. Am I correct? i.e.

$$\hat{P}_{MLE}(X = i, Y = j | X = i) = \frac{\# \{ (x,y) : x = i \text{ and } y = j \}}{\# \{ x : x = i \}}$$ $$E(\hat{Z}_{MLE}) = ... $$ $$Var(\hat{Z}_{MLE}) = ....$$

  • And finally, suppose if I were to falsely believe that $D_1$ and $D_2$ were completely independent and uncorrelated, thus believing that there is no covariance term. Logically, I would underestimate $Var(Z)$ because I have eliminated all covariances?

  • However, the estimate for $E(Z)$ would also be incorrect as this would be affected by incorrectly assuming the absence of correlation. If the two dice are correlated such that the first 6 is more likely to be followed by another 6... the expected sum will be slightly higher compared to two uncorrelated dice. so if I incorrectly ignore correlation... even E(X+Y) will be biased.

Thanks!

Note: Here are the formulae if we assume both dice are independent (notice that the conditional probabilities have been dropped):

$$E(Z) = \sum_{i=1}^{6} \sum_{j=1}^{6} P(X = i, Y = j) \cdot [i + j = z]$$

$$Var(Z) = \sum_{i=1}^{6} \sum_{j=1}^{6} P(X = i, Y = j ) \cdot [i + j = z]^2 + (\sum_{i=1}^{6} \sum_{j=1}^{6} P(X = i, Y = j ) \cdot [i + j = z])^2 $$

stats_noob
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  • You have wrong sign in formula for variance: $Var(X + Y) = Var(X) + Var(Y) \color{red}{+} 2 Cov(X, Y)$. Also, I think it will be simpler to write PMF for $Z$ explicitly, and then you will need a lot less sums. Estimation of probabilities from sample is completel different story from the rest of the question, you need to specify family of distributions for it. Regarding expectation - unlike variance, expectation of sum is always sum of expecations, dependent or not. – mihaild Dec 15 '23 at 11:41
  • I also belive it can be better to split this question into separate - all parts ("what are properties of this distribution", "how expectation and variance or sum are affected dy dependance", "how to estimate parameters for such family given sample") are reasonable quesions on their own. – mihaild Dec 15 '23 at 11:45
  • "...I am interested in finding out a probability distribution of $Z$ so that I can find out expected value of $Z$ and variance of $Z$...". Fine, but cumbersome. If you want to find expectation and variance of $Z$ then it is enough already to find the expectations of $D_1$, $D_2$, $D_1^2$, $D_2^2$ and $D_1D_2$. For finding $\mathbb EZ$ you can then use linearity of expectation. Further it is easy to find the variances of $D_1$ and $D_2$ and also their covariance. Finally the variance of $Z$ can then be found as: $$\mathsf{Var}(D_1)+\mathsf{Var}(D_2)+2\mathsf{Covar}(D_1,D_2)$$ – drhab Dec 15 '23 at 12:57
  • @mihalid: thank you so much for your reply! – stats_noob Dec 16 '23 at 00:45
  • @drhab : thank you so much for your reply! – stats_noob Dec 16 '23 at 00:46
  • Do any of you have opinions about this question? https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/4828491/expected-value-for-sum-of-unfair-dice-equals-expected-value-for-sum-of-fair-dice thanks! – stats_noob Dec 16 '23 at 14:27

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